Interview with Sylvaine Delacourte, Art Director of Parfums Guerlain

Much as Sylvaine Delacourte has been a rather controversial figure on the online perfume-community venues so far, she has exhibited a rare eagerness to listen attentively to the pulse of our passionate heartbeat and has impressed me as genuinely interested in fragrances, as attested by her French blog. After all she's head of development in one of the most historical houses in all perfumery, Guerlain. I had taken the initiative to invite my readers into posing their questions to Guerlain and in a rare example of generosity, she has agreed to answer some of the most interesting ones. Here are Sylvaine Delacourte's replies on Perfume Shrine, with a little teaser on the upcoming releases!

Perfume Shrine: Madame Delacourte, first of all thank you for your consideration of Perfume Shrine and our readers. Let me begin by the core issue on our minds: The uniqueness of Guerlain has been standing between historical tradition and searching for modernity. But the problem is the core fan of the brand wants the tradition (the classics, the historical re-issues in Il était une Fois and Les Parisiennes), while obviously the house needs to find a new audience that is younger or less fanatical, ergo more modern in order to survive in a competitive market (La Petite Robe Noire, Mitsouko Fleur de Lotus, Elixirs Charnels, L'Art et la Matiere etc). What balance point is taken between the loyalty to Guerlain traditions and modernization?

Sylvaine Delacourte: From the beginning we have always tried to find a balance between the past and modernity.We try to give wings to our past!! This is shown in different ways. Indeed every year a prestigious special edition is launched to remember the past (for example : Champs Elysées tortue, Sous le Vent, Le Muguet etc..) It is a way to celebrate our past but not to reproduce the past. There is an essential goal in the Guerlain tradition: Innovation! Before becomming classics, Guerlain perfumes have always been innovative and were never smelled before. Jicky created in 1889 wasn't successful at the beginning, but it's become a classic. Habit Rouge , created in 1965, the first oriental for men, wasn't a success but since many years it's become a French pilar that performs without advertising. I could talk to you about Shalimar (1925), Samsara (1989) and many other Guerlain perfumes. In our new creations you always detect an attachment to the past that has been modernized. Insolence has been created as a modern L'Heure Bleue or Après l'ondée. The collection L'art et la matière is a celebration of the noble raw materials so loved by Guerlain : the precious rose for Rose barbare or orris for Iris Ganache...As you can see, regarding our creations, we have a large range of perfumes. Everybody can find his or her fragrance : the core fan of the brand as well as other people who are looking for more modernity. La petite robe noire has been a really big success, even if some of the bloggers don't like it; but the younger generation loved it, therefore it appealed to a segment of the market.

PS: I admit that I am not a great fan of La Petite Noire myself even if not middle-aged, but I understand your point. What ideas and motives stand behind the recent modernizations and reformulations? Many of the newer releases have been accused of being "dumbed down" and far less interesting than the old beauties. Does this assessment surprise you, or do you find it legitimate? To what would you ascribe this perception - difficulties in obtaining excellent raw materials? Changing consumer tastes in much, though not all, of the market? IFRA regulations? Something else?
SD: At Guerlain, perfumes are alive. We are still a brand that uses a lot of natural raw materials and as you know nature can't be controlled. That means that even if you don't change anything in a formula, each production is subtly different. For example we have a lot of natural rose in Nahéma. Depending on the weather, the ground, the conditions ... the smell of the rose will be slightly different from year to year, so the odour of Nahema would change a little bit. That's why at guerlain we create our "communelle" or "the rose blend "; it describes a careful assemblage of different roses to ensure constant, consistent quality from year to year. Concerning refomulations, I hear you, but the matter is very complex. We have to conform to IFRA regulations of course and as you know those change often. It is much complex for Guerlain than other brands, because the brand is 181 years old and you can imagine that some old raw materials have disappeared. We have to find good substitutes. So it's a huge permanent work. But be assured that our perfumer Thierry Wasser works on this very carefully and is aware of the latest discovery of new raw materials that could be interesting as good substitutes of some components. Our goal is not to betray our fragrances' soul as much as possible in the frame of the above. Even if Guerlain were still a family-owned brand we would still be obliged to respect the law and to reformulate...

PS: When 68 Champs-Elysées was refurbished and relaunched, several of the legendary perfumes from the early 20th century were to be re-launched as limited editions (Cachet Jaune, Ode etc). Is this still the intention or has the plan been abandoned? And why have Métalys, Guerlinade and Chant d'Arômes in extrait been discontinued all of a sudden?

SD: We have more than 750 creations written on the secret book, so naturally we are obliged to select some of them in current rotation. All our perfumes catalogue can't be sold at all times, even if it is very important for us to show to our custumer that we have a wonderful past of beautiful creations. Chant d' Arômes extrait as well as Après l'ondée extrait and Parure have been discontinued because it was not possible with the IFRA reglementation to rebuild them whithout irreparable damages! We preferred to stop production than to give a substitute of the original extracts. Regarding Metalys, unfortunately the results of the sales were very bad!

PS: Is there any prospect of new releases which fall into the signature Guerlain category, or is the line now dedicated solely to modernization and "light" fragrances? (for example the new Mitsouko Fleur de Lotus is lovely in my opinion, but very fleeting!). Men fragrances are also becoming increasingly lighter, as attested by Guerlain Homme recently. Is this part of the new Guerlain direction?

SD: In 2007 when we analysed our masculine fragrances portfolio, it was obvious that freshness was missing from the line-up. And today it is a very important element for men. A large category of men don't feel comfortable with "round" or sensual fragrances like our older ones. That's why Guerlain Homme has been created. But if you are looking for a another interpertration of Guerlain Homme , with more body and more oomph, due to the very present woody facet, you will have a surprise next September!

PS: In last year's L'Express there was a mention that Annick Ménardo would collaborate on the upcoming "major Guerlain feminine launch". It would seem that that would be the new Idylle. Did she collaborate indeed or not?

SD: Idylle has been created and signed by Thierry Wasser.



PS: How has LVMH's acquisition of Guerlain affected your own role? If you have been the creative director since before acquisition has your responsibility changed at all, or has your approach been affected in any way? I can imagine heightened work pressure just because Guerlain has had so many new releases lately. So how do you manage to find inspirations at that rate? Are you solely responsible for coming up with an idea which is then executed by Mr. Wasser or is there a panel at Guerlain now? And what have been your latest inspirations: a film, a book, a journey?

SD: My own role is to work beside Thierry Wasser who is the successor of Mr.Jean Paul Guerlain. Today everything can be an inspiration source : a dessert, a raw material , a drink, a travel, a colour, a film, a feeling...life in general is a source of inspiration!

PS: Many perfume buyers report having no access to established classics in most department stores where only some best-sellers or very recent releases are stocked. (ie. often no Mitsouko, no Jicky parfum, no L'heure Bleue, no Après L'Ondée....) Are there any plans to change that? There is a complaint of older loyal clients regarding the disappearing of ancillary products such as soap or powder, too.
Also several people suggest making the Paris-only fragrances available online, although I realise that their vantage point has been their covetability due to exclusivity. Chanel USA has recently made such a move with their Les Exclusifs. Are you thinking of a similar move? And if so, would you direct it only towards the US market?

SD: Our porfolio is so wide, that the department stores or independent boutiques cannot carry all products or lines; this is due to their own space allotment and they opt for their bigger sellers. That's why you can find many references in our own Guerlain boutiques , in Paris , and now in many boutiques worlwide: Tokyo, Moscow , Hong Kong, Spain, Belgium, Germany, Canada, US,etc...there you can find approximately 100 product codes! Which is a huge selection! In certain exclusive scents the initial production is limited, we have little quantities ourselves, but 10 boutiques worldwide carry them.
Regarding ancillary products, it is not realistic to have them in 100 fragrances. Therefore we keep them for the major references such as Shalimar, Samsara etc. The Shalimar powder for instance is only sold in England. Unfortunately, every time we tried to reintroduce soaps in our lines, the sales were very low. Our customers preferred the body gel.

PS: In times of economic recession luxury brands raise their prices or increase the size or both. Yet according to recent articles in WWD, The Financial Times and The Times the fragrance market has taken a blow in lessened sales in the first quarter of 2009 and consumers are rationing their perfume-buying quota accordingly. Guerlain has been issuing lots of super-expensive releases lately, often substituting previously reasonable products with the same composition in costlier bottles and with tighter distribution: Coriolan, Derby, Mahora, Terracota Voile d'été, even the Les Saisons coffret which reprised 3 out of 4 scents, one of them being a previously Aqua Allegoria scent. Do you see Guerlain becoming a superluxury house abandoning more economic releases? What is your own opinion on this?

SD: Guerlain is a master perfumer, our catalogue is wide and all women and men can find their Guerlain suiting their personalities. The higher prices on the exclusives are easily explained however: to create a bottle , it costs a lot , we have to spend a lot of money to create the design, the outillage, the mould for the flacons; additionally most often the exclusives are more concentrated ~Eau de parfum, not Eau de Toilette, as well as bigger quantities, and they come packaged in a gorgeous box which costs a lot too.

PS: Although you have previously made your position clear to us, there is still lots of misinformation in the Guerlain sales force as well as in the press, when they claim several innaccuracies such as Mitsouko never having been reformulated since its 1919 creation for instance, Insolence being the first composition by a non-Guerlain family member etc. It makes the informed consumer feel stupid at the counter when they're met with such conviction!

SD: I see what you mean. Indeed it was L'instant for women which was the first big launch created by a non- member of the Guerlain family. We have taken action and our sales force are now getting informed about the reformulations, so they should be able to explain. However, regretably we can't always control what is said in press articles. We are making fragrances for the consumers and it is not our purpose to misinform them.

PS: Last but not least what is your position on fragrance criticism? The Internet boom in the blogosphere and the reviewing in print has created a lot of buzz around the brands resulting in renewed interest, but has also brought criticism beyond the control of the firms; something unprecedented in the perfumery business! Do you find it annoying (especially when it's amateurish and non fact-checked) , stimulating, interesting or something else entirely? What do you answer to that?

SD: We can't avoid criticism. When you sell a creation, it can be a perfume, a painting, a film or something else, you have to face criticism that can be positive or negative of course. And naturally it is becoming more and more important, since we now we have the Internet with its wide circulation of news and opinions and the breakthrough of blogs. But art criticism in general is largely subjective. One person can give his/her own opinion but that's all. Specifically a perfume is an emotion: Either you feel comfortable with it or not...

My sincere thanks to madame Sylvaine Delacourte for alloting us some of her precious time!

Related reading on Perfume Shrine: the Guerlain series, Guerlain news, Interviews with industry professionals.

Sylvaine Delacourte on the Open

"I used to be a dedicated make up artist but knew I wanted to do something different. I decided to take up a job at Guerlain. After a while, I realised I knew nothing about fragrances and underwent training in fragrances. This changed my life. I trained for two years in the only school in Europe: Isipca. Soon I joined the marketing team of Guerlain. From make up, marketing and plenty of other profiles I have now become the nose of Guerlien.[sic]"

Sylvaine Delacourte, the artistic director of parfums Guerlain, is opening her cards on the table in an exclusive phone-interview on occasion of the introduction of the Guerlain brand to India (Why did it take them so long? Ah, but judging by Dior's Escale a Pondichéry, India seems a hot spot market-wise now!) Among interesting opinions such as flowers being a universally liked scent and her faithfulness to one signature fragrance (that one, not revealed in the article, is L'Heure Bleue), Sylvaine Delacourte also reveals that she made Cuir Beluga taking herself as the starting point and main aim. She credits Thierry Wasser as the new nose in the house and gives a few practical rules for perfume wearing.

Read the rest of the article on the Hindu Mail here.

Edit to add (15 June): Mme Delacourte had the graciousness to personally address Perfume Shrine (in English no less) and clarify the following points for our readers and I quote:

"for Jicky , it is a fougere , but in the base notes you can find the harmony of shalimar!for my title , in the past I was director of the creation , it means i was in charge of finding a new idea , and the perfumer who will be able to tranform the idea into a perfume,(it means also evaluation) each time I have mentionned the names of the creators, Maurice Roucel, Olivier Polge and many others...NOW, Thierry wasser is our internal nose, CREATOR, successor of Mr Jean Paul Guerlain, and I am helping him , in the development of some fragrances. I am also the ambassador of the brand!"

Our thanks for those most interesting comments and since the venue is officially read by Guerlain headquarters, I invite you, my readers to pose/mail me with your personal questions on matters pertaining to Guerlain so that we could perhaps establish a constructive dialogue!

Related reading on Perfume Shrine: the Guerlain series, Guerlain news

pic credit from previous article on mailonsunday.com

The Strange Case of Dr.Oakmoss and Mr.Citrus (part 1)

We have been discussing the latest perfumery restrictions on ingredients these past few days. [You can catch up here and here]. Today's post is useful and practical advice before you rush to buy everything tagged "vintage" on Ebay or stores, especially on anything that says it has a "note" of oakmoss (many of them do not have oakmoss to begin with, as a "note" is not an actual ingredient ~meaning the effect of "oakmoss smell" can be replicated aproximately with other ingredients, some synthetic, some natural). To set things straight therefore, let me say the following.

Oakmoss is ~according to the latest restrictions applicable from January 2010~ only resticted, not prohibited. Let me repeat: oakmoss is not being completely eliminated from perfumes! The direction simply states that it needs to be drastically lowered. What that means: it's allowed to 0.1% of the formula compound AND at the same time the oakmoss extact has to contain no more of 100ppm atranol and chloroatranol (those two are the sensitising parts of the natural essence) But oakmoss has been steadily getting lowered in the last 10 years at least! Even if it means perfumes with high levels of it in the formula have to change again, those are the very perfumes which have already changed a lot, sometimes to the point of unecognisability as many fans have noticed! (Miss Dior, Ma Griffe, Cabochard etc.). After all the Scientific Committee on Consumer Products (SCCP) adopted the following during the 2nd plenary meeting of 7 December 2004: "The European Commission received a letter from the University Louis Pasteur, Strasbourg, France, with data demonstrating that chloroatranol is a potent fragrance allergen in cosmetic products. The European Flavour and Fragrance Association (EFFA) submitted a study “Local Lymph Node Assay (LLNA) – Sensitisation dossier on Atranol and Chloroatranol” and information on the levels of these substances in oak moss and tree moss" (the latter is exactly the study on which Dr.Rastogi was featured and please read on to find out more). Therefore this is known since at least 2004! In fact there is a very brief post on this link that announces it (with an email to the proper recipient, so it's not like they couldn't have been contacted!): Department of Environmental Chemistry and Microbiology, National Environmental Research Institute, Roskilde, Denmark. (scr@dmu.dk) And another from 2003!
So do you think perfume companies hadn't already wisened up seeing the developments that were impending? Surely not! They were already doing reformulations!

On what concerns Mitsouko in particular Mme Sylvaine Delacourte (artistic director for Guelrain) had the good grace to provide a quote regarding the reformulation of Mitsouko with only tree moss, setting things straight (and I translate):

"Our house has honoured two values for decades: Tradition and Modernity. Tradition denotes the quality of olfactive construction of each of our perfumes with savoir-faire and heritage. Modernity denotes the scrupulous and rigorous respect of the European regulations in the constant concern for our clients. Mitsouko has benefited in 2006 from the most recent olfactory innovations which respect our heritage while at the same time repressing the incomfort tied to certain raw materials. Therefore current Mitsouko responds to the European directives".

Perfumes can theoretically still include oakmoss (evernia prunastri or mousse de chêne) in the formula at the approved levels and I quote from the 43rd amendment of IFRA:

“For this material, for pragmatic reasons, restrictive levels allowed by the QRA for certain categories but actually being higher than those already in place before applying the QRA, will temporarily not be implemented until the end of a 5 year monitoring phase. At the end of the 5 years the position will be reevaluated again. […]Introduction of an additional purity requirement in the Standards on Oak moss extracts and Tree moss extracts.”

And category 11 (encompasses all non-skin contact or incidental skin contact products) is unrestricted! If we solemnly swear to only spray on clothes? This is why Luca finished his article with the wittisism “don't spray on skin”.

The "black" point is that since 2007 IFRA accepts big boys as members and this is the real news: Givaudan, Firmenich, IFF, Takasago etc. can be members who have a say in the regulation of perfumes. The perfumes which they themselves produce. Is it about the concern for consumers' health? It might but most importantly it's about money. How could this happen?
Like Anya McCoy told me:

"Perfumery is being forcibly mutated into a beancounter-driven business with an extremely limited palette. Afraid of lawsuits from consumers if they dare refuse to reformulate classics or create new fragrances with the limits placed upon them, big perfume houses have capitulated. This is a quote from a retired perfumer I interviewed two years ago, the one who blithely answered "we were asleep at the wheel" when I queried why the perfume industry allowed so many regulations to pile up. IFRA, at first golden and shiny with the promise of providing an industry regulatory system that would give the world of perfumery professional and governmental status, botched the deal ~badly!"

There is a PDF available for download (mail me if you want to read it!): It’s the study that Luca talked about in his article, the one I referenced above and of which Dr Rastogi is one of the paticipants. It opens with:

"Based on the submission by EFFA1 of a study "Local nymph Node Assay(LLNA)-Sensitisation dossier on Atranol and Chloroatranol", the Scientific Committee on Consumer Products (SCCP) adopted at its 2nd plenary meeting of 7 December 2004 an opinion (SCCP/0847/04) on Atranol and Chloroatranol present in natural extracts (e.g. Oakmoss and Treemoss extract) with the conclusion:“Because chloroatranol and atranol are components of a botanicalextract, oakmoss absolute, it has been impossible to trace exposure. Chloroatranol was shown to cause elicitation of reactions by repeated open exposure at the ppm level (0.0005%) and at the ppb level on patch testing (50% elicit at 0.000015%). As chloroatranol and atranol are such potent allergens(and chloroatranol particularly so), they shouldnot be present in cosmetic products."

The study talks about 2 ppm though and I quote:"The main identified allergens in oakmoss are chloroatranol and atranol. The ‘typical’ levels of these chemicals have been reduced to levels described". And it concludes with the very logical matter which we tried to explain the other day on why a simple warning label doesn't cover the issue and I quote (bold is mine):

"In recognition of the fact that contact allergy to oakmoss/treemoss is important, product ingredient labelling is required. Such labelling, as a secondary measure to prevent disease, is helpful only to that group of the European population who have a recognised contact allergy to oakmoss/treemoss (following diagnostic clinical patch testing). Labelling is not helpful to the group who have unrecognised contact allergy".

And tree moss which also contains the sensitisers has to be in tandem restricted so that the combined sum of essences does not exceed 0.1% in the formula.
Therefore since oakmoss is again to be reviewed in 2013, this means that there is a window frame for companies to conform and for us to think about this and decide with a cooler head than today's panic.

But there is hope for oakmoss notes yet! Although the patented synthetic Evernyl is not a satisfactory substitute, there is another oakmoss synthetic, Orcinyl 3, which if used together with Evernyl could do the trick.(And it’s only $2400/kilo).
Laurie Erickson, an artisanal pefumer from California for the Sonoma Scent Studio line, also told me: “The big difference for oakmoss with the 43rd amendment is that people who want to use natural moss have to switch to a low allergen moss like the Biolandes product with less than 100 ppm of atranol and less than 100 ppm of chloroatranol (the Biolandes is the only currently available natural moss I know of that meets this standard). If you use the low atranol moss below the maximum usage level and perhaps add a smidge of Evernyl/Veramoss and/or your other favorite mossy ingredients, you can create a pretty nice oakmoss note and still be within IFRA standards; I’m just starting to work with the new moss but so far I’m quite optimistic. I do wish they’d make some exceptions for the old classic formulas and I’m very concerned about the direction we’re heading with all these restrictions on so many materials, but I think we can still create moss notes in new perfumes even under the new guidelines if this low atranol moss turns out to be as promising as it seems right now. I’m just going through all my formulas to substitute the low atranol moss for the regular moss that I was using, and I’ll know more as I continue that process. I had been skeptical before sampling this moss because I’ve been disappointed with the low allergen versions of lavender and bergamot I’ve tried (though I hear better bergamot is available now), but I was pleasantly surprised when I sampled this moss and I ended up buying some.”

Ayala Moriel, another artisanal naturals perfumer has interesting commentary:

"As of the end of last year, neither of my oakmoss suppliers were no longer carrying complete oakmoss absolute. The sensitizing elements were removed, as per IFRA's regulations. Which is not surprising, since oakmoss is grown and harvested in the EU (mostly in former Yugoslavia), and most of the perfume industry at large is still concentrated on that continent. To my pleasant surprise, even at this manipulated state, oakmoss still presented the full spectrum of performance it always had, and was just as good as ever for creating chypres, fougeres and adding nuances to florals, orientals and citrus".

And she likes the Biolandes oakmoss as well! This is what she stated to me:

"1) IFRA is not scheduled to review oakmoss again until 2013, so I have no reason to believe there will be any changes to the current oakmoss regulations before than
2) I checked with my suppliers and they are not aware that this material is about to become unavailable in the near future
3) Since last year, the oakmoss absolute sold in the market was one with the sensitizing molecules removed, namely atranol and chloroatranol and resin acids. This
is also the reason why combining both oakmoss and tree moss is restricted (tree moss contains resin acids, so if it is used in a formula in a conjunction with oakmoss the concentration of oakmoss will be even lower). "

Roxana Villa of Roxana Illuminated Perfume has assured me that she has created an accord that mimics oakmoss sufficiently, composed of natural materials that are within limitations and if her Q is anything to go by on how her woody, green mossy blends go I am very optimistic! Liz Zorn of Soivohle' Perfumes is also another artisanal independent pefumer who is capable of creating oakmoss accords through the combinations of other ingredients: "It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out how to dupe oakmoss, or even jasmine for that matter. Natural a combination of natural and man made or all man made."

Alex, a perfumery student who writes J'aime Le Parfum had a lovely quote:

"I do not remember whether it was me or a fellow classmate who asked Jean Claude Ellena several months ago about his feeling about IFRA, and he basically said “I don’t really care, and it does not stop me from doing my work.” I think what he says is key here, and it has to do with creativity. You do not need jasmine to give your fragrance “naturalness” or “richness.” You do not need iso e super to do perfumery. You do not need oakmoss to do perfumery.You do not need majantol* to do perfumery." (*majantol is a synthetic lily of the valley ingredient.)

I have personably been in the fortunate position to have smelled the new Biolandes low-atranol oakmoss and compare it to the traditional oakmoss essence and it does seem to perform well, although perhaps not perfectly “photocopied” but a talented perfumer can certainly put it to good use. AlbertCan is also one who has worked with both and corroborates the potential. Technology is on our side if we give it time and who knows what the future holds?
Since reportedly the Chanel Company controls Biolandes, did they just opt for re-creating a chypre with no oakmoss in their 31 Rue Cambon instead of relying on this new low-atranol material? It goes to show how boundaries need to be crossed for something to be created anew or how they cannot be sure on further developments ruining a newly launched product.

The big news is however something else entirely: the raw materials suppliers at Grasse (who mostly dabble in naturals) have been bought out by the big companies! Laboratoires Monique Remy is owned by IFF. Robertet bought Charabot and so on...It figures, doesn't it.
Like Anya Mc Coy says again: "Another wrinkle is the buying up of all the small- to medium- size processing houses, from Charis to Charabot. The pipeline that is in place to bring the extracted aromatics to the perfumer, from the distiller with a field unit in the jungle of Indonesia, to the jasmine plants in Egypt are more and more under the control of corporate conglamorates. If they - the corporations - find it easier and cheaper to use synthetics and the demand for naturals dries up, so will the pipeline. Price fixing, as with vanilla absolute, is firmly in place, in my opinion."

So practical advice: If you need to stock up on favourites from big companies, don't rush to buy whatever has been produced in the last 6-7 years at least. And even then, it's good advice to save up your money for extrait de parfum only, the most concentrated version and therefore the one in which the limitations would pose a greater problem. Do continue to support the artisanal perfumers, now more than ever.
And another suggestion for the perfume industry this time: Have you thought of the vast potential of hair mists and oils?

To be continued with other questionable materials...