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Friday, May 21, 2010

The Perfume Wars: Old Lady vs Older Woman

Among perfume lovers' circles there are no other two words more despised than "old lady" perfume. Is it because often the people who love ~but also have the economic means to indulge in their passion~ are of more mature years? Is it because it connotates the worst ageism possible, an invisible one? Is it because in the en masse swiping out of "old lady" perfumes one is thus disregarding all the classics and the vintage treasures which evolving trends made obsolete? Possibly it's a combination of all of the above. And why are men left out, as usual? Are there no "old men" fragrances? And if they exist, why isn't the world paying any attention? Considering the subtextual content of language in reference to scents isn't an easy task, probably exactly because olfaction is a function that addresses the brain's limbic system rather than the rational centre of speech. Therefore a correlation between feeling produced by smell and language used to express it is hard to establish.

Some people defend the term "old lady" by saying it's vague, so it could be construed positively. And originally it was. For instance, a beloved grandmother who has a loyalty to a specific fragrance of her youth might be an old lady to emulate. I can think of at least two. After all fragrance vogues come and go: When My Sin by Lanvin launched in 1925 it was the bee's knees (it still is, if we need to be objective), a subversive scent for an emancipated woman. Miss Dior (1947) was aimed at the debutantes of the first years after WWII, hence the "miss" denomination. Now the young ones wear Miss Dior Cherie, a sweet fragrance that bears no olfactory relation to the predecessor and turn up their noses at the original. L'Eau d'Issey (1992) marked a whole generation now in their early forties; in the eyes of a modern teenager, it's terribly passé. The cyclical course of fashions accounts for the unavoidable reversion of norms and perceptions, in regards to scents as with everything else.
It could be a lack of vocabulary and imagination only: The derogatory term is easy to say and to blurb forth, without trying to come up with a phrase that describes our feelings in more precise terms that could convey nuanced meaning. Obviously the mystique of fragrance is terra incognita for many, but I am wondering whether this is an excuse for terminology laziness.

On the other hand, so very often the term "old lady smell" is used in reference not simply to obsolete or old-fashioned aromata, but rather displeasing or even repelling ones: Smells of incontinence, of "dead" hormones (very seldom detractors consider "old lady" perfumes as sexy or attractive), of lacking hygiene due to physical disabilities, smells of medicine and disease...The feeling is almost one of foreboding, a bad omen that has the evil ability to stick around and influence everyone around. "Chela Gonzalez and her friend Nora are looking forward to sixth grade in their El Paso school. They have finally been placed in the A-class, the “smart class,” which is for students who only speak English. Then Chela’s father has a stroke on the first day of school, her grandmother comes to help out, and “the air became thick with the smell of old lady perfume, of dying flowers and alcohol…. It was the smell of bad things.” Thus is constructed the central plot in Claudia Guadalupe Martinez’s debut novel for young adults "The Smell of Old Lady Perfume". No baking cookies, cuddling and fragrant kisses goodnight for this grandma and grandaughter.
A blogger further writes remarking the scent of a woman he passes by: "Perhaps this isn't a smell that old people spray themselves with. Maybe when you get past the menopause, you instantly start emitting it. Old women try to mask it with stronger fragrances, but the old lady smell keeps coming out. As they get older, the smell fades, and is replaced by the smell of old mothballs." There is even a Banning Old Lady Perfume on Facebook! And the pursuit of youth at all costs knows no (commercial) boundaries: there's a magic smell for everything!
Surely it must be a hard-wired mechanism in humans that averts us from anything that reminds us of our own mortality seeing a woman of advanced years as discarded material, an old hag. Before you pppfft it as sheer rubbish though read this: "A researcher at Shiseido Laboratories has traced the problem to a fatty acid known as palmitoleic acid. He has also learned that the body of a person up to about the age of 30 does not secrete a noticeable amount of this substance, but that once a person--whether male or female--hits 40, the volume rises sharply. The volume of palmitoleic acid released by the human body is 10 times as great among people in their seventies as in their forties."
Still, aging is a privilege; the alternative isn't as good. We might as well be a little more accepting and lenient and grow up already!

Spirited discussions ensue whenever the subject is brought up nevertheless: One perplexed 25-year old says she was told by her boyfriend "his favourite perfume is White Diamonds by Elizabeth Taylor" and asks for opinions on whether it's too mature for her. Before anyone playfully suggests she ditches the boyfriend, she is told instead to "try it on skin first", "its old lady, try smelling Paris hilton, Gwen Stefani, Baby phat, J-Lo, these are just a few in my collection that smell oh so good", that "it’s a little mature but it smells alright. I wouldn’t wear it until I’m like 45+", "I didn’t know they had perfume for young folks and old folks" and yes, finally that "it is marketed to an older more mature woman". Ah...the magic word: "marketed"!

But let's see the world of difference a small substitution does to the term: What if instead of "old lady" we had "older woman"? The image of a prim, conservative little commuter, grey hair in a bun and structured purse in her lap, sensible shoes and no thoughts of enjoying anything naughty is looming whenever the derogatory term is used. Is it the "little" lady in there that is so distasteful to the detractors? One of them even mentions it out of the blue as smelling like "Eau de little old lady" when talking about retro perfumes , so there must be some truth in my theory! In contrast, consider being youngish and being told you smell "like an older woman", especially if this comes from a man. Instantly the characterisation is not negative; far from it. It's "older", not old. It's "woman", a more sensuously rich term than "lady". It's all French (or Italian) films and summers spent as an exchange student someplace where a knowing woman had taught you the secrets and exasperations of adult life Mrs. Robinson-style. Who wouldn't want to be as alluring as Jacqueline Bisset? Still, the ringing-of-some-humiliation term of "cougar" has been concocted against older women going after younger men, so I'm seriously considering whether "old lady" isn't a feminist issue to begin with. It probably is.

A suitable alternative term for "old lady" perfume nevertheless hasn't been universally accepted yet. Would "retro fragrances" be a positive term to replace the "old lady" one when referring to classics & old-fashioned scents? Would "old-fashioned" do when we're talking about something that is not necessarily within our comprehension or taste? Would "displeasing" be an umbrella subjective term for the scents we don't like, forgetting the ageist tentacles which are spreading and engulfing us whenever we use the term "old lady" in a negative light?
We're taking submissions for vocabulary expansion right here as we speak: Offer your own!

pics via shadyoldlady.com and cinematicpassions.com

35 comments:

Karin said...

Retro or vintage scents, perhaps, if they truly are vintage vs. newer remakes.

I'm not sure we all have to wear the teen-current fragrances to be current, but I suspect it wouldn't hurt to re-examine what we like to wear and if it is pleasing to others around us -- and even if there isn't something we might like better. Maybe use a lighter hand, if it is something we no longer can smell but others can.

Anonymous said...

Tricky topic, and one that deserves an airing; thank you for this thought-provoking blog.

Comparing and contrasting different scents is the only way to determine what each individual finds agreeable on his or her skin. Just because a scent doesn't work out, doesn't mean that *it* is at fault (unless it has gone off!); so "displeasing" or "disagreeable" or even "unwelcome" would work better than simply calling the scent names. Learning to identify the reason for the mis-match between scent and putative user obliges the user to think hard: something about the scent appealed to the putative user before they tried it, otherwise they wouldn't have sought it out or picked it up. What precisely didn't work out for them?

The scents that attract that ugly label are usually complex and exotic confections, and it takes time to learn to appreciate complexity, so some of the young bloggers may develop more sensitivity and appreciation as they age (it is to be hoped).

Thinking about it some more and comparing fields of interest, do people who enjoy wine disparage complex mature vintages in favour of fresh grape juice? No: sometimes they want fine wine and sometimes they want juice. Similarly, artists don't wholly dismiss past achievements, only applauding new single-colour or single-theme artworks. All other areas look to and plunder the past for inspiration without denigrating it, so why is scent subject to casual linguistic thoughtlessness and laziness?

"Retro" works. "Old-fashioned" is still quite dismissive. "Classic" and "Original" and "Vintage" work, especially with reference to scents that have since been reformulated or have even been selected for 'flankers'. "Glamorous" and "Sophisticated" are useful but still depend upon the nose and taste of the tester!

I think that the classic scents put me in mind of Hollywood dames in film noir - beautiful and compromised gals wearing uncompromising Perfume (with a capital P). Old lady, my eye!

Keep up the good work educating us with this fab blogspot.

cheerio, Anna from Edinburgh.

Marko said...

Yes - the "old man" comments are out there and in full force.....trust me, I've heard them! The first time I wore Montale's Oriental Dream to school, my students did NOT have a problem telling me I "smelled like their Grandfather". Of course I was mortified, but it didn't stop me from wearing it....maybe I'm bringing a little nostalgia into their lives(?)

I do think that a majority of the people (especially younger consumers) ONLY know what is being advertised in Magazines, TV Commercials and Celebrities, and this greatly influences their ideas about what is "new, current and hot". The few times I have gone on trips and had a student house sit, they are usually blown away by my 150+ collection and ALWAYS say "I've never even heard of most of these! Where did you find them?" I always encourage them to "explore, spray, and experience" as much as they want - as long as they tell me what their favorites were. Without the media screaming at them as to what they should wear to feel "sexy, young and enticing", you'd be amazed at what they pick as their favorites......DK Chaos, Agent Provocateur, Montale Black Aoud(!), Malle's Fleur de Cassie and Le Parfum de Therese, to name a few!!!!

Bottom line - for me the segregation of fragrance into ageist categories has EVERYTHING to do with the media and much less to do with people's actual olfactory preferences.

Anonymous said...

Dear E,

I love these posts of yours.

I am not really sure if I could present a single moniker to replace "old lady". I truly think it is laziness; it would be so much more helpful if people would use more creativity when describing perfumes they like or don't like. There are so many older perfumes out there and they span the spectrum from floral to chypre, with stops along the way at orientals, leathers, aldehydics, so it is very difficult to know what we are reacting negatively to if we just paint all of them with the "old lady" brush.

I just consider myself lucky that the old ladies in my life (all gone now) were never frail, small and tottering (even if physically they were). When I hear "old lady" I see my great grandmother and my two grandmothers and all I think of is incredible strength and lives lived to the fullest. I'll take whatever perfume they were wearing.

Natalia

Anonymous said...

So many things to say! Olfactorama just had a similar entry on her blog, celebrating the 'old lady'. I'm about to turn 39, 'old lady' perfumes are starting to appeal to me.....I sometimes wonder if it's due to the fact that as we get older our senses of taste and smell dim, so perhaps some older women go for perfumes that are fairly strongly scented, and sometimes tend to overapply in the process. I like to think that it's because as you get older, you're buying the things that YOU like rather than purchasing things that are a fad. At this point in my life, I can't wear most things like Dior Cherie, because it's wayyyyyyy too sweet for me and I don't want to smell like a 20 year old. I've earned my faint wrinkles and my graying hair, I have children, I've worked my butt off, and I'm proud to be the age that I am. I want people to know, through scent, that I choose to smell a certain way because I like that scent. If you don't like it, that's OK. If you're going to rip into me because if it, it only says something about you, not me.
I also think that economics DO come into play. I'm lucky enough that I can buy a bottle of perfume pretty much whenever I want, but I want to buy things that are quality and classic, and speak of elegance and a certain style, adn many of those fragrances tend to be pricey. Every so often I'll try something that's geared to the younger women, and I seriously feel nauseous. Many of them remind me of fragrances from my childhood and frankly, they are a complete turn off. So maybe instead of 'old lady' fragrances we can refer to the younger ones as 'immature' fragrances, but that would be wrong, right? :)
Anyway, fantastic post. Thank you.

tarleisio said...

What I think is interesting about this very thought-provoking discussion is just how much it shows how perception is everything. Just as you yourself pointed out - 'Is White Diamonds too mature?'

i think back to my own long-gone days of wanton youth and what I myself wore. Those were the days when there were very few celebrity scents, very little specifically marketed toward the younger generation, and what there was was on some level or other considered a bit - downmarket. A perfume such as Revlon's 'Charlie' comes to mind.

So at age 18, I sported a blue Mohawk, an Indian silver nose/earring combo and wore...Narcisse Noire, Miss Dior, Jicky, Magie Noire, no. 19, Cabochard and Chamade, which are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Today, I suppose those would be considered the height of senility, although to be fair, I really think I could only do them justice now.

The ubiquitous fruitchouli marketing nightmare of the Noughties has a lot to answer for. I wish I knew who came up with the idea that fruit+musk+bubblegum equals 'young, hip and happening'. Just so I'd know who to blame. Or shoot! ;-)

On the other hand...my daughter, a FlowerBomb fanatic (can't stand the stuff myself), gave me a hug this afternoon and asked me what I was wearing, she thought it was so glorious.

It was - Bellodgia. Created in 1927. With a definite vintage vibe, you might say.

"You think I smell old?" I asked her.

"No. You smell like a total goddess!"

Not so bad, for - an older woman. (47)

jacqueline Bisset - watch out! ;-)

Anonymous said...

that fatty acid you mention is the premise for "ageless perfume" which supposedly counteracts it. problem is, the perfume itself is so insipid and simple, no one with any strength or gumption or personality would want to wear it.

let's face it, "old lady" perfumes have/had personality and power. in this politically correct age, this is offensive to many (but not all).

the past couple of generations have been raised to think that light and fresh from the shower are appropriate scents. they use scent to cover and neutralize natural body odors, rather than complement them.

i give huge kudos to perfumers like francis kurkdjian who incorporate notes reminiscent of the living human body in their perfumes. their scents don't just sit there on your skin like some plastic flower and fruit arrangement. they meld with you and become part of your aura. (i complimented francis on this quality when i met him a few weeks ago, and asked if he did this intentionally, and he said yes, so i'm not just making it up.)

but so many current perfumes don't do this - they smell completely separate from the body - so when consumers encounter a scent, like a classic chypre, that does this, it is startling, even shocking, to them.

so far, in the course of smelling hundreds of perfumes, there have been only a couple of that i associate with "old lady" smells. youth dew is the one that comes to mind first. but i don't think it's because of the perfume itself, which i like.

i think it's because somewhere i smelled it on a woman whose body didn't smell clean and who wore too much of the scent. for some reason i have a mental image of her being in a church.

there is another one, from the early 1960s i believe, that takes me back to that time. at some point in my childhood i was around an older woman who wore it. in my brain, this scent is associated with an older woman. but she was a real woman encountered at some point in my life.

my point is, my "old lady perfume" references are contextual. they are attached to a certain place, time and person.

i wonder: if people actually stopped to consider what "old lady perfume" means to them, would they remember a certain time, place and person that triggered the response?

to just apply the term willy-nilly is, as you point out, lazy labeling.

btw, some of the most enthusiastic compliments i get on perfume are for vintage classics and modern chypres. but i know what smells good on my body, so maybe that's why they work for me.

some women don't know what smells good on them - i know, because i have smelled them - so maybe they're the ones creating the problem!

(take miss dior cherie, for example. one young woman (late 20s) i know wears it and it's horrible on her (smells sour and unclean) - so some day in the not-too-distant future, miss dior cherie will be "old lady" to those who've been exposed to it on her!

btw, white diamonds smells cheap and horrible on me, but i once smelled it on a woman who smelled so incredible i had to ask what she had on.

so when a perfume works, it's magic. when it doesn't maybe it's "old lady perfume."

great topic! i've been thinking about switching from writing about perfume to writing about ageing, so i love to see this sort of discussion.

cheers!
minette

ScentScelf said...

Ummm....YEAH.

You are right to tease out marketing as part of the issue. But scent as marker of an era...as hairstyles...or fashion...might be hard to avoid that. A complex nut, because there are our *personal* associations (such as my grandmother/high school English teacher/parole officer/fusty violin teacher wore that fragrance, or that packaging screams 1940/1970/2007), as well as those marketing tricks. In fact, I don't know if we can escape the fact that we live PMA: Post Marketing Era.

Plus, do we wear scent to emulate or mark individuality? (Or like to believe we mark our individuality, but do so by throwing in our lot with conscious or unconscious crowd markers?)

On a different note, I already mentally separate "old lady scent" (think nursing homes, stale clothes, etc.) from "grandma scent" (which is a bit messy, containing both things my grandmothers actually wore, and certain kinds of aldehydes, as well as a nebulous group of scents from a different time). Those labels I took from already existing vocabulary, and probably aren't the most correct for political and other reasons. Hopefully, transparency is a start?

Still thinking...which is funny, because I had already had a nugget of this thought running around my head before I came here. Ancillary to some thoughts about preference and privilege in floral notes...

Olfacta said...

I think "classic" is a pretty good term for it, as in classic films, classic(al) music...interesting word, purely in the lexicon sense, isn't it? Class, as in sociological grouping; "classy" (shudder) and so on. One of the commenters above had an interesting point. We didn't have our own perfumes when growing up, particularly. My mother was just as likely to wear Mugnet des Bois as I was, although I remember print ads in "Seventeen" clearly targeted to my age group. I wore Emeraude and Intimate in those days, both (very) old scents, but no one called them old-lady. So, again, it's all about marketing...sugary synthetics aimed at a particular demographic, and dividing the target market into smaller and smaller sections.

JAntoinette said...

"Retro" works for me; I like classic as well. What about nostalgic or period perfumes? I always giggle when I hear teens describe no. 5 as an "old lady" scent. Marilyn wore it, and if she had lived, Marilyn would indeed be an "old lady" now, but what an old lady she would have been! If anyone ever tells me I smell like an old lady, I think I'll just wink and say "Thank you".

Wordbird said...

Can I add "Old School" to the vocabulary here? By which I mean a perfume that has some history and heft to it and smells "perfumey" (oriental, chypre, green or whatever). Though I do like 'Retro', 'Vintage' and 'Classical' as well.

I do think the 'old lady' thing is just one of the barriers you have to go through to smell everything equally. I had a barrier about 'butch' that made me resistant to trying men's fragrances, but I got over that (it was the patchouli) and now lust after a bottle of Yatagan. I struggled with the names on the celebuscents, but steeled myself, did a very fun round of testing in stores and now own a little Kate Moss and a Kylie. Finally, I have broken through the oakmoss barrier to fall in love at last with the chypres that eluded me for so long and smelled like (whisper it) my Grandmother.

Some clever soul pointed out on Basenotes that nowadays, in reality Old Ladies who stick to perfumes from their heyday will be wearing 70s/80s big hitters like Poison, so what does the term actually mean? My adored Ma is 78 and has worn No. 5 for years, though she has in recent years snagged some bottles off me: Tocade, Ivoire and Shalimar. Hmm. Please can I smell like her? :)

Brownie said...

In one of the links, in the essay, there was an article on the Harvey Prince fragrance that supposidly makes women 'read' as about 10 years younger (or thereabouts) to others. Interesting how the woman who tried it found it overwhelming but her hubby reacted well to it. I found it overwhelming too, and sent it back to QVC for a full refund.

Ageless is pricy for an EDT (about $100.00) and use to sell on qvc.com but now it's on shopnbc.com.

I find that most 'new' celeb fragrances (with the exception of Halle Berry's first venture and Queen Latifah's first venture) are sickening to me. The new, 'young' juice is often too sweet and/or contains annoying aldehydes mixed with leather notes under the sickening sweet topnotes.[fragrances from Paris Hilton, Kimora Lee Simmons, Britney Spears, Mariah Carey to name a few]

And, I cannot bear the smell of fake water or fake air. I know those 'read' as young, but they're very heavy to my nose.

I realize much has to do with what fragrances we became use to growing up. And at 56, I find myself wearing more and more oils from various online shops (usually musks), instead of EDP sprays. I want something that smells sensual, beautiful and comfortable to me.

BitterGrace said...

Great post, and so many interesting comments. I'll be back to comb through them all. My own opinion is that "retro" really denotes something new that is designed to mimic or pay homage to something old, so it's doesn't seem quite the right word for the perfumes our grandmothers wore. I think the truly classic perfumes deserve a dignified word to suggest their importance to modern perfumery. How about "ancestral?"

As for the "old lady" epithet it is such a universal put down of anything that isn't fruity or sheer that it doesn't really mean anything. I do think there's such a thing as age-appropriate perfume, however. I find it jarring to smell Chanel n.5 on a young woman, and equally jarring to smell Miss Dior Cherie on an old woman--but there's nothing wrong with making a fashion or fragrance choice that other people find a little jarring. It keeps things interesting :-)

Perfumeshrine said...

Ladies and gents,

I have sadly neglected responding to your wonderful commentary. Let me take off a minute shortly and reply in full, as you deserve.

Perfumeshrine said...

K,

I like both retro and vintage as terms: they have a nostalgic quality about them and a positive vibe.
It's often hard to "see" (or smell) ourselves through the others' eyes!

Perfumeshrine said...

Anna,

thanks for all the interesting thoughts!

I am of your point of view that often associations play a more important role than anything else. It's difficult to see how it ties, but it's enlightening nonetheless.

"Old-fashioned" might have a negative ring to it in English. As in veering to obsolete. I was thinking it's probably a nicer term than plain out "old" (as in fossilised), but maybe I am wrong. :P

And definitely there is some correlation between wine lovers and their appreciation for a complex bouquet (or "nose" as it's also referenced" when smelling a nice glass of something so the term vintage is very fitting. But I love your "sophisticated" or "glamorous" suggestions, especially when associated with silver screen sirens. The trouble begins when you're trying to peg something like White Shoulders or Blue Grass: Perfectly lovely, but glamorous they're not. What then? (This is a difficult one, I know! Suggestions welcome)

Perfumeshrine said...

M,

good to know that it's not gender specific! Equality in dismissive epithets for suffocating fumes of people we/they don't play Internet Games with!! :D

Perfumeshrine said...

M,

comment cut off before I finished. Duh...

Your experiences with the students is comparable with mine (not as elaborate all the time, though I'd wish it). I had a recent convertion of someone to an old Hermes: not exactly what one would think of as "youthful" or "easy" but it worked.
It's GREAT to know that really young people when non affected by marketing and only SMELL can form opinions of their own and make quality choices!

Perfumeshrine said...

Natalia,

thanks honey! Glad you found it enjoyable! And thanks for the interesting recounting of your own experience.
Cherished memories and a good example to follow... :-)

Perfumeshrine said...

Anon,

thanks very much for your kind words and for sharing your thoughts with us. P is a darling too and I should go read.
Your point about older, assumed as more mature people being less impressed by marketing and more tuned in to what they really think certainly rings a vibe. Too often the 25-45 age group is very much at the center of the cyclon of advertising and they tend to sway people into spending no matter how good something is. They do realise the error later I guess (people are not that stupid after all), but by then they have laid down the cash and then another thing is getting advertised etc etc.

Personally I don't think older people spray more sometimes (obviously not all of them do that!) because they can't smell well. Some of them can smell magnificently. I think ~though I could be off base~ that they have familiarised themselves with a couple of favourites which they don't smell as potently as much because of the familiarisation.

"Immature" might be correct in several frag market cases (don't get me started!), but it would still involve a certain put down. There probably can't be an umbrella term for them, but the recent trend for overt sweetness is "death by sugar". :P

Perfumeshrine said...

Tarleisio,

the commentary is dramatically engaging, I have to give it to my readers, they often come up with great points which put me into thinking. So your efforts are much appreciated and I cherish this dialogue.

Something tells me your rebellious teenage angst wanted to look and feel more mature than your years, hence the sophisticated (wow) choices! I can but applaud. Not sure if the Mohawk was what designers had thought of, but really, a jarring image sometimes makes an unusual scent even more memorable.
Bellodgia FWIW is among my favourite florals, it's so darn rich!! Carnation scents have an old-fashioned vibe sometimes, but I don't care. Neither should you! (you're on the right path and love your mother!)

In regards to blaming for the fruitchoulis, I believe Ann Gotlieb who also supervised the Axe craziness is a prime suspect to point fingers at. She's a great market genius obviously (as attested by her stint with CK and other designers too), but I guess she didn't expect the repurcussions. :/

Perfumeshrine said...

Minette,

totally cool comment!

Yup, the ageless fragrance totally based its marketing on this recent finding. I hear it's unmemorable, so maybe blending in is the secret of youth? LOL!!

I'm a firm advocate of associations so we're on the same wavelength on what you say. but it's very difficult to cut off associations that are lived in (the same often goes for taste, think back at the first time you tasted, oh I don't know, spinach or arugula or camembert etc) And it's even harder to admit to them!

Writing about aging is much more important than writing about perfume, I suppose, as it's something that does or will affect us all! I wish you good luck with it, maybe you can combine the work?

Perfumeshrine said...

S,

as I always say the only reliable test is the blind test: take a fragrance and put it in a test tube and present it to people without telling names, brands or showing them images. Then you'll know what they think! But how often does that happen. Riiiight.

In regards to your excellent question about fragrance wearing for emulating or individuality, I think the pendulum swings at both directions. Often when one is younger or is in a specific environment, they tend to pick a popular choice because it makes them feel like they belong. Feeling one belongs is not a bad feeling and it shouldn't be disregarded. It's a human need.
On the other hand, if there is any hint of rebeliousness, marking out one's territory is essential and what other more visceral medium is there than smell? Also as we grow up we tend to find out how "empty" fads are and what "fools" we have been (in relation to be influenced by marketing significantly over our better judgement) and start mapping out our own paths. At least I think we do.

I'm not too much for PC so your terms are acceptable on the grounds you define them: transparent descriptions of pleasant and unpleasant associations. Love me some granma scents!
Would love your thoughts on floral notes and preference. :)

Perfumeshrine said...

P,

classic is an accepted and fitting term which I like a lot. I find it's truer in the means of "of eternal quality and harmony", that's the vision I have of it (typical for an academic historian I guess).
It's very true that there was no specific segregation of scents into young and old back in time. Not to mention that young girls (and young boys) wanted to emulate their parents and elders, witness their clothing, their hair-styles etc. I think the chasm happened in the late 60s (not that I was living through it, but based on what I've read). And was Anais Anais the first scent presented for girls rather than women? I think so. Charlie was for the working girls in their 20s and early 30s as far as I recall the marketing.

BTW, Intimate...what you're reminding me of.

Perfumeshrine said...

JA,

"nostalgic fragrances" is lovely, as is "period scents". The first one instantly puts me into a romantic frame of mind and yes, veering into beautiful.
Marilyn could have worn anything and she would have owned it. Old lady? She never would be. She had a child-like need for affection it seems, like an eternal puppy. Endearing!

Perfumeshrine said...

Wordbird,

"old school fragrances" is a terrific coinage of term! Thanks!!

There's empowerment in shattering barriers, so I applaud your journey in frag-dom!

As to the fads of today being considered old tomorrow, mais oui! I already have colleagues eternally stuck in L'Eau d'Issey and Tresor and it dramatically "ages" them in the noses of the very young ones. Fashions are cyclical. Always have been.

Your granma sounds like a woman who is determined and possesses a discerning eye. Good for her!

Perfumeshrine said...

Brownie,

yeah, I can't even begin to dissect the AF scent ad copy without clawing my meowy little ones out. :P

Celebuscents: Never was there such a flood of them geared towards the youth culture. Shame as they ruin their criterion from such a tender age. But in regards to your exceptions, I have a theory: You have to be black or Hispanic to have some comparatively decent juice out> examples include Halle and Latifah and also J.Lo's couple of scents and Naomi Campell's first. Only SJP doesn't fit that mould theory of mine with her Lovely. (darn, there goes the theory!)

Personally I find "fake marine" scents amazingly piercing and nothing like the ocean really. The ocean is a very complex smell (salt, iodine, driftwood, sand, some rot) and can't be captured in two or three screechy notes.
I'm probably being dismissive of some chemists' hard work, people who toiled in the labs for years to patent Calone and the rest, but sorry guys, can't stomach those notes. :/

Hurray for musk oils! (love the musks myself)

Perfumeshrine said...

M,

yeah, thanks for joining! And yes, the commentary is alive and kicking and providing very insightful thoughts which go way beyond what I was presenting in my own article. This is one of the gratifying moments of keeping a blog, seeing dialogue grow and hopefully ideas coming out of it.

You do find some things jarring on "inappropriate" ages? I always have at the back of my mind LT's comment on No.5 that it should be worn either as an "easing into" perfume-dom or if one only wears that as a single choice. It stuck because I was given No.5 at 14 with a similar introduction ("see what the myth is all about").
As to MDC, well...I find it jarring on the young too. :P

Nina said...

Chanel #5 is an old lady perfume to me because it smells like the older women from church when I was a kid.Giorgio doesn't smell old to me, but it smells both disgusting and comforting because it reminds me of my mother. (Disgusting because I don't like the scent at all,but comforting because it smells like my mothers bed)


I like MOST other "old lady perfumes" because they remind me of my grandmothers. And yes, I do also associate those scents with mothballs,dusty old paper and clothing and suitcases in old closets in old houses. The powdery floral scents and the mustiness of old things are linked in my mind.


I had my 30ish brother and his 20ish wife smell some fragrances and their take on most of the older vintage ones were that they smelled "rich" or "classy". Neither thought they smelled "old", probably because the age difference means they don't associate that with my grandmother in her heydey.

Baby powder and baby wipes, btw, smell nasty to me. I associate that smell with dirty diapers and scented sanitary products for women. Pineapple smells "young and sticky" to me because I associate it with small kids eating fruit cocktail.

Eva said...

Hi!
New reader here!
I love your blog and this post is no exception...
In regard to the term "old lady": for me this is a very specific smell. 1147 Eau de Cologne. Why? I live in Cologne and when I was agrowing up every woman over 60 seemed to smell like this..
To me this isn´t necessarily a bad scent, on the contrary, I find it comforting, but would not wear it myslef because it isn´t "me".
But whenever I smell cool lavender (or cool white musks for that matter) my mind goes: "old lady" and creates the image of the woman my grandmother used to be some 15, 20 years ago: vital, active, taking care of her garden and cooling down with a dab of 1147.

Perfumeshrine said...

Nina,

I have to say it: Brava! You have cracked a lot of hard nuts in your analysis and you provided some excellent commentary.
Indeed I found myself nodding my head with many of your observations. I hadn't thought of diapers and baby wipes scents that way, although I can see how the association with dirty diapers and baby wipes could be formed. And yes, age gaps can account for so different associations with what is considered "old lady" or not! It's bound to be a cyclical thing, since fashions change.

Thanks for your wonderful insights!

Perfumeshrine said...

Eva,

thanks for stopping by and for commenting; and for your nice words, I'm touched! :-)

4711 is such a classic standby (especially in Germany but also in the Mediterranean) that I can very well see how someone might associate it with older people just because they did drench themselves with it. I know several older relatives who had huge vats in their bathrooms for summer wearing.

How very intriguing about cool lavender and cool white musks in the same breath! I hadn't thought about them that way and I can totally see it now.

Hope to see you often on our pages. :-)

Anonymous said...

I use the term "Old Lady Perfume" sparingly, and then it usually means a fragrance with too many conflicting notes, a fragrance that doesn't "flow". It blossoms in stops and starts and hiccups and it's so powdery, it's positively dusty. Anything from La Prairie fits this description.

"Retro" or "old-fashioned" do not mean "old lady". A fragrance can be gorgeously old-fashioned but young and fresh in spirit.

Old-Lady is something else, like musty unwashed clothes a where fragrance mixed with dust, face powder, make-up, rouge, layer after layer, until it smells unclean.

If you can find another word for it, great.

Nile Goddess

Chick said...

When I hear the phrase "Old Lady" perfume, I assume they mean cheap, old fashioned scents that you could buy in a local chemist (e.g. Tweed, Blue Grass). I don't mind if a fragrance is "vintage"; in fact, I am more likely to go for a rarer classic, as I cannot stand smelling like anyone else. If someone I don't like wears a particular perfume (whatever their age), that perfume becomes offensive to me! I always associate rose scents with lovely cuddly grannies- for that reason I adore Penhaligon's Elizabethan Rose.

Luanne said...

Being of a certain age myself, I am quickly offended by such crass dismissal. If you can't express yourself eloquently, you go to superficial short cut insults. Instead of saying "The fragrance reacted to my body chemistry badly" you write a review like "smells like vomit, yuk!" Instead of remarking that a scent is dated, you use the "old lady" bomb. Any such references lead me to the immediate assumption that you are a moron. I am 56, I am no longer a sweet young thing. I am not mature however, never have been and not likely to become so at this point. I have never especially identified with my own age group, when I was young I preferred older friends and now I like to also have some that are much younger. What is an old lady to me is different than it is to someone else, and I am painfully aware that I could put in the god awful grouping. But my mother is still around and there is no denying that her group are definitely old ladies. I remember my mother particularly having a fondness for Youth Dew, and while it would bring up memories for me - I have no desire to wear it. I won't demean it with such a moniker however. I haven't smelled it in years, I assume it still smells quite good. Would it be out of context on a 25 y.o.? I honestly don't know. I worked with a number of elderly people a few years ago and I don't remember most of them having noticeable scents. A few over blasted the fragrance, but I think you find that in any group.

Scent preferences come and go, some remain classic even if they are dated. I am obsessed with vintage scents, and I want to smell like Carole Lombard or Jean Harlow. Or even before that. I suspect these vintage gems have run the generational gamut way past being old lady scents, because what seems to be in that category are the well known fragrances of the 70s and 80s.

I will say what I told a friend once, don't count your youth as an attribute. It is too fleeting. If you are wonderful because you are young, what will you be in a few years? If you are truly wonderful, you will remain so no matter what age you become. Consider the qualities that can increase rather than those that unavoidably diminish.

Some day what is fresh and popular now will be cast aside with that O.L. insult. The name Brittney will be as dated as Betty is now. It is inevitable, I suppose. Each generation wants to separate itself and make their own statement and that is positive. I just hope they can express that in terms that aren't an insult to everyone else.

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